anita's*thoughts

Sunday, July 03, 2005

I am much liking Jono's blog right now. Cool template and some real good stuff on it. Jono’s post was got my mine ticking on an issue that will be important to everyone over 18 who has the privilege of voting.

Unfortunately it would seem that a vote for the minor parties is a risky option for Christians. Will an election that is looking for be very close votes are going to count. If your party doesn't get over the 5% your vote is wasted. A lot of Christian feel that even though this may be the situation their conscience will not let them vote any other party than Destiny or CHP. Not an opinion I hold personally but I can respect it.

We gotta get Labour and the Greenies out of Office. As Christian we need to make sure our vote counts particularly is this close election.

For me it is either National or the United Future. Jono raised a really good point about UF supporting the Labour govt to keep them in office and that is the reason why he will not support them. However there are some things we need to remember:

1. They are the only party with open Christians.

2. They are not in coalition with Labour, very important. They support them on supply and demand only which means we can have a stable government. This means that United Future is free to vote against the Government on policies that it disagrees with and has done so. What is does mean that United Future is Labour's preferred partner on legislative issues, that United Future is consulted and included on legislative issues, and is privy to government information. UF doesn’t not have to do anything it doesn’t want to do- it has not bound it’s self to the govt. Remember because of the supply and confidence agreement the cannabis issue was off the agenda. For more info check out www.unitedfuture.co.nz

3. They are the party that most closely identifies it’s self with Christian values. The National Party does not. Yet many of Christians may vote for them this year and why? To get Labour out of power. But remember our struggle is not against the rulers and authorities but against the spiritual darkness of this world. Why would you vote for the National Party (whose leader voted for Civil Unions and the party itself has no firm moral convictions) than vote for a party where our brothers in Christ are MPs and stand for what we believe in more than anyone else!

Let us not throw the baby out with the bath water. Let us be fully informed and not close our minds to voting for a party that has voted against the government’s destructive legislation unanimously!

Because Peter Dunn (leader of the party) hold an electorate seat, a party vote for UF is not a wasted vote. If they only get 1.5% it will not be redistributed but will allow another UF MP in because of Peter Dunn’s seat.

46 Comments:

Anita, Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Don Brash did not vote for the Civil Unions Bill. my understanding is that He voted with it right upto the last reading. Then decided that it was not what our country wanted. He didn't vote for it in the final reading.

By Jonathan, at 9:11 am, July 04, 2005

Question: If CHP identifies itself more with Christian values, should every Christian be voting for them?

Objection: They don't have enough suppport, it will be a wasted vote.

Answer to Objection: The only reason they won't get in, is because Christians won't support them, and vote for secular parties. To say they aren't polling high enough, so we won't vote for them is a defeatist attitude.

Implied answer from Anita's post: If we vote for United Future (whose leader is not a Christian) votes are taken away from a party where all are our brothers in Christ and stand for what we believe!

Another question for us to think about:- Just because a party has more Christians in it does it make it more equipped to govern?

I personally haven't answered these questions for myself, but I know 2 things for 100% certain. I will not vote Labour or the Greens.

Good post though.

By Scotty, at 9:19 am, July 04, 2005

Sorry I should've got all my info at once instead of doing little bits here and there... You claim UF voted unanimously against destructive legislation. According to my sources a member of UF voted for both the Death with Dignity Bill and the Relationships bill, both legislation I would consider destructive.

By Jonathan, at 9:23 am, July 04, 2005

Strange! The comment I replied to disappeared!

Man blogger is stuffing up at the moment. I wrote a cool post today - and saved it as a draft and it disappeared too.

One word: RAAAAAAAA!

By Scotty, at 1:59 pm, July 04, 2005

The same thing happened to me- I posted a comment and it didn't come up!!
But actually I did read yours and now they are gone!

By Anita, at 2:06 pm, July 04, 2005

My 2c worth:

i have to disagree with ya on some things u guys said here Scott & Anita. yes we would all love it if we had christians in the top position in running this country. but u know what? the likelihood of that is very very slim. and this is for many reasons. 1) u not only have just one christian party u have about 3 if i'm correct. CHP, united future (if u consider them a christian party) and Destiny Party. i'm not surprised, looking back, that CHP didnt get in in 96 after what has been released bout Graham Capill and his misdemeanours over his years as a leader...it was probably a blessing in disguise actually that they just missed out on gettin that 5%. Besides, how do we know the current leader of CHP is an upright guy and not fooling us like GC did?? 2) yes National is a nonchristian party but the way Labour & the Greens have been tryin to run our society is gettin to the point where we're on a rapid downward spiral. and im hoping that National will be able to change that a bit - esp. as they have more opportunity of gettin in power - and hopefully get Labour out of there, even tho National does not have a christian leader. nor is a christian party.

but yeah like i said thats just my 2c, was gonna say more but i need to get off here 4 now

By Priscilla, at 7:55 pm, July 04, 2005

Since we're bashing other parties (sorta), wasn't UF the one where once they got in to government they were told to keep their lips buttoned on religious issues? Even tho those religious issues were what earned them the fake title of a Christian party (they aren't - they just occasionally have christion morals). I recall a news item on that but forget the source (and thus the question I guess).

I'll vote CHP because they are the least objectional. If my vote is wasted that's only because God deemed it right that they did not get in. I pray they will. And prayer is powerfull. Have faith and vote with your conscience.

By Anonymous, at 1:55 am, July 05, 2005

Priscilla - your point about Capill is unhelpful.

How do we know for that matter that Helen Clark, or any other party leader isn't a pervert of some kind? We can't limit this skepticism just to Christian parties.

By Scotty, at 7:38 am, July 05, 2005

Priscilla is right though Scott, she was only talking about possible parties that we would vote for, it doesn't matter if there are other people that are dodgy cause they aren't fooling us. But it isn't fair imply that Ewen McQueen would do the same

I respect your position Allan that you would vote CHP but they not going to get 5% and the Capill despicable affair has given it a further blow. UF have never said that they are a Christian party and if you are relying on the media to report to your UF's Christian princples then you will be waiting a long time. Anyway I remember it being in the media that a UF MP was fasting over the prostitution reform bill.

By Anita, at 9:07 am, July 05, 2005

Guys, No one has called United Future a christian party since after the last election. Anita was simply stating (and correctly so) that they are they only party who has open christians.

And Allan, I don't think you can claim God has wasted your voted any more than I can claim my car wastes my petrol. You can't enter into something knowing the outcome and then blame the outcome on something or someone else. As Christian we are required to be good citizens. Good citizens must vote and vote sensibly. That includes thinking about what will happen to our vote in the big picture.

By Jonathan, at 9:13 am, July 05, 2005

Jono- Don Brash voted for the first reading of Civil Unions and voted in the final reading for the prostitution reform bill. Yukky I can't vote National for that.
Scott- I don't really understand your comment. Are you saying I have a defeatist attitude cause I say it is a wasted vote for vote UF?

By Anita, at 9:17 am, July 05, 2005

Actually Anita, if you read what Priscilla said she only mentioned the possibility of the CHP leader being like Mr Capill...... she may have MEANT 'the possible parties that we would vote for', but she didn't say that, which of course is what I picked her up on.

By Scotty, at 9:28 am, July 05, 2005

Haha! Anita there goes that missing comment from yesterday.

By Scotty, at 9:29 am, July 05, 2005

Yes i apologise about the way that i implied ewen mcqueen is like graham capill in my previous comment. i was writing off the top of my head. and no i dont believe he is. but yeah this whole thing is a bit of a dilemma, to say the least, for christians...and i have not decided yet who i will vote for other than it will most definitely not be for Labour or the Greens obviously.
Even if lots of us here do vote for CHP, it will be tough for CHP to get thru the 5% after all its been thru...but then again nothing is impossible with God.
Just as an aside, i'd also like to point out the fact that Destiny Party (unfortunately) will probably get a lot of votes from those that go to destiny churches and the like...

but yes like you said allan (and others) this does deserve a lot of prayer as to who as Christians we should vote for this election.

By Priscilla, at 11:25 am, July 05, 2005

Why do you say it is unfortunate that the Destiny Party will get a lot of votes?

By Anita, at 11:51 am, July 05, 2005

It is unfortunate b/c it may and/or will affect the number of votes CHP gets...from people that are pentecostal etc anyway

By Priscilla, at 12:43 pm, July 05, 2005

Yes it is a shame that the Christain vote is being split 3 or 4 ways. But I doubt many penties would have voted for CHP anyway.

By Anita, at 3:41 pm, July 05, 2005

Well you all know my position on Destiny... lol So I won't start that up again. CHP probably suffers from similarly dodgey theology. I'd probably have to weigh them both before voting. To be honest I haven't considered Destiny as a valid option til this minute.

As for my comment the other day, I was thinking at the time of all the situations in the Bible where God told people to do the moral thing reguardless of how useless it looked. I was remembering such things as that battle where God culled out most of the army and then send a few to fight and totally smashed them with God's help. So, read my comment again with that in mind :) That's how I meant it.

While it is likely my vote would be wasted for voting for CHP (or destiny? hmm) I'm not willing to support another party who I know to be the more immoral just because of that. That's what I meant when I said have faith.

I was going to vote CHP but now I think I'll look closer at destiny. anyone got a link to their statement of faith or policies?. But I'll still vote with my conscience rather than statistics.

By Anonymous, at 3:42 pm, July 05, 2005

Far enough- but my conscience won't rest easy knowing that here is a very higher percentage chance that my vote will be redistributed to a party that I didn't vote for and morally object to. It isn't about stats it is about common sense. Remember Ashraf Choudhary would not be in parliament if the re-distrubution hadn't occured.

I don't know about Destiny but you have to separate Brian Tamaki from the party cause they are different.

By Anita, at 4:15 pm, July 05, 2005

Allan, Peter has a DVD about Destiny. He's wanting to get it copied. So maybe I'll steal a copy for myself and you could borrow that!

Yeah and about the voting thing. Just to restate Anita's point. You have to do some weighing up. Is it more moral to Vote for the party with good morals with a high chance of your vote being discarded. Or more moral to vote for a party with average morals knowing that your vote will stand against a party with Atrocious Morals.

By Jonathan, at 4:41 pm, July 05, 2005

I think the Christian Vote being split 3 ways is a good thing! the only problem with it is MMP and the 5% threshold. Under a system with a transferable vote I think all 3 parties could flourish as they all have slightly different voter pools. Diverse Christian representation could be a good thing

By Jonathan, at 4:44 pm, July 05, 2005

I can probably copy the DVD... or at least DivX avi it...

Dunno about copyright on that tho... Peter copying it at all may be illegal.

By Anonymous, at 7:01 pm, July 05, 2005

by that I mean I have a DVD writer avaliable for use by Peter if so wishing. (will email him now)

By Anonymous, at 7:03 pm, July 05, 2005

Diverse Christian representation is good thing but not in an MMP environment. Which is the environment that we are in and therefore a split vote is a bad thing.

By Anita, at 10:17 pm, July 05, 2005

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

By Scotty, at 8:04 am, July 06, 2005

RAAAA at tax!

This should become an election issue"-

-----> http://toastertim.blogspot.com/2005/07/we-are-overtaxed.html

By Scotty, at 8:08 am, July 06, 2005

Cheeky!

By Anita, at 8:23 am, July 06, 2005

Hehe - free advertisement! :0

By Scotty, at 8:33 am, July 06, 2005

did you want to do this?
Scott's post on Tax

By Jonathan, at 9:13 am, July 06, 2005

Hey! Cheeky boys, cut it out.

By Anita, at 9:29 am, July 06, 2005

Yeah - except I didn't know how.

By Scotty, at 9:30 am, July 06, 2005

Do you do it like this?

By Scotty, at 9:32 am, July 06, 2005

Yes, That is correct. you seem to have the hang of this!

By Jonathan, at 9:47 am, July 06, 2005

Watch out Scootie or I will go and post lots of Anon comments on your blog. Or will I mmmmmmm

By Anita, at 9:56 am, July 06, 2005

Will you post your anonymous comments here?

Ok seriously I'm done being stupid! I'm glad I learnt how to do that though.

By Scotty, at 10:00 am, July 06, 2005

It has got you a stack of comments tho! It's beating your smacking post now! tehe

By Jonathan, at 10:05 am, July 06, 2005

Yes but the last ten are you guys being geeks:) Anyways don't you guys have work to do?

By Anita, at 10:09 am, July 06, 2005

Im procrastinating from my grace assignment

By Scotty, at 10:14 am, July 06, 2005

And Jono what is your excuse?

Woohoo made it to 40!

By Anita, at 10:16 am, July 06, 2005

Imagine if Dan was around to comment- I would have heaps more! I sure he would have had some thoughts on the subject.

By Anita, at 10:18 am, July 06, 2005

Sorry no excuses... at least wasn't like Scott shamelessly makeing silly links to my own web page.

And yes, Dan does have good insights into stuff. Is he running for CHP this year?

By Jonathan, at 10:24 am, July 06, 2005

I don't know, I think I asked him about it but he wasn't sure. Maybe he will open a fried chicken restaurant instead.
If you are going to post a link you might as well make it work.

Scott- you owe me some free advertising on that crazy blog of yours.

By Anita, at 10:28 am, July 06, 2005

Well it was intended to be a silly link. It does work, it just links to the page you're already on, that is why apparently doesn't work.

But anyway... is this better?

Yes I think Dan should do that. Then we could take over New Zealand with a mind control drug! YAY

By Jonathan, at 10:55 am, July 06, 2005

Then you can be his undercover brother and grow an afro

I will be sending you both bills for advertising space on the prestigious blog of Anita MacDonald

By Anita, at 11:02 am, July 06, 2005

Here...you can have my afro.

By Scotty, at 11:18 am, July 06, 2005

Sorry to get back on topic.

There are approx 300,000 'evangelical' Christians in NZ.

A party will need approx 100,000 votes to reach the 5% threshold.

If half of all Christians voted for CHNZ and the other half voted for Destiny, we'd have 2 openly Christian parties each with a seat in Parliament, and Peter Dunne would still get his seat to keep you UF fans happy.

And even though compromising ones Biblical Christian foundation might mean ones vote has more worth, that doesn't make it right, or even good.

By Dan, at 2:29 am, July 09, 2005