29 Comments:

Speaking for myself only, I'd say that it means neither.

ZM defines 'Mainstream' as poorly as Parachute defines Christianity.

Parachute is a popular music festival. ZM is a radio station that plays a lot of popular music. I'd say it's only natural that Parachute would advertise there.

Parachute is simply a festival of Christian music. It doesn't really define Christianity any more than (for example) the Labour Party defines politics.

But I may have misunderstood the question you are posing?

By  Dan, at 2:02 pm, January 19, 2006  

I think you can define ZM as mainstream- it has 1 million listeners and plays pop music. It represents a large part of NZ.
The Parachute festival is a part of defining what is Christianity in NZ to the general public (I think). It is an event that a lot of NZers know about Christian or non. Just like the Labour party defines part of politics eg Left Wing Politics in NZ.

I don't find it, personally, natural that they would advertise there. ZM plays some very questionable music and it's presenters are, at times, openly anti-christian.

By  Anita, at 4:02 pm, January 19, 2006  

I checked out freedictionary.com

Their definition of Mainstream is:

Representing the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of a society or group.

I think ZM would represent the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of a society or group, particulary by the music they play and the things they discuss. And I think that Parachute would represent the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of the Christian group in NZ, again by the music they play and the ideas and concepts they promote.

By  Anita, at 4:30 pm, January 19, 2006  

I think Parachute has gone mainstream. More to the point, I also think a lot of the so called Christian music has long gone mainstream. So Parachute would just be following along.

I was reviewing a list yesterday of the dozen or so popular Christian bands who have also publicly played secular music - in some cases music from the satanist band Black Sabbath. And a close look at the actual lyrics of their christian songs also reveals a trend of twisting scripture to fit a rhyme or beat. (not all obviously, but more than I will tollerate)

Often even in Churches a singer will be allowed to sing heresy because the song sounds good. People tend not to notice as much when its slipped into a performance.

I gave up listening to all radio long ago because their lyrics (and here I mean Christian radio) were starting to aggravate me by their liberalness.

Once again, I'm ranting. lol

By  Anonymous, at 7:02 am, January 20, 2006  

Anita....

I'm confused by your comment... Daniel actually never said anything how we might define ZM or Parachute.

By  Jonathan, at 10:21 am, January 20, 2006  

Of course I agree that "ZM plays some very questionable music and it's presenters are, at times, openly anti-christian."

But the point I was trying to make is that music-wise, at least, I wouldn't consider 'Mainstream' and 'Christianity' to be mutually exclusive.
By that I mean I cannot see why a born-again, bible-believing Christian musician is any less of a Christian for having their music played on, say, ZM.

To juxtapose 'Mainstream' and 'Christianity' is like comparing chalk and cheese.

I beleive 'Mainstream' can contain a Christian element without having to be wholly Christian itself.

You illustrated exactly what I've just said above by applying the dictionary definition of 'mainstream' to both ZM and Parachute. You've considered them both 'mainstream', so I'm still not sure I understand your question.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I just want to know what you're getting at.

By  Dan, at 10:32 am, January 20, 2006  

Oh, and in response to Allan and despite Anita suggesting Parachute as representative of mainstream Christian music, I have to argue that the Parachute music festival has so many diverse acts covering so many different genre of music from so many different church/denominational/theological backgrounds, that's it's very hard to label it 'mainstream'.

Allan, if you went to Parachute, I'm sure you'd find some music that would suit your tastes.

By  Dan, at 10:40 am, January 20, 2006  

Anita,

I was also very surprised when Martin mentioned Parachute were advertising on ZM. I personally stopped attending Parachute because it seemed to be becoming 'less Christian' - I enjoyed it because it was alcohol and drug free, and because the atmostphere was so relaxed and laid-back (it still is theoretically alcohol and drug-free, but try enforcing that now...) Back in those days, I'd say the majority of people who attended were Christians. Now it's gotten so big and I agree, quite Mainstream. They do bring in mostly "Christian" bands, but most of the time you can't understand the words anyway. I think now it's just become a music festival for the masses - they're expecting around 27,000 people this year! I'd rather stay home... (yes, I'm getting old!)

By  Anonymous, at 11:18 am, January 20, 2006  

Now, before you read what I am about to say here, I want you to know that I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular - plesse make sure you have that perfectly clear.

When I do listen to the radio, I listen to either Newstalk ZB, or Radio Hauraki. Neither of which are Christian radio stations. ZM, as you have pointed out, is obviously not a Christian radio station either.

But if, as Christians, we're going to get excited/upset about something here, what should concern us more than whether an openly Christian music festival is advertising on a 'secular' (for want of a better word) radio station, is that people and many of them Christians, listen to ZM and similar radio stations day-in, day-out.

And anyway, getting a Christian voice onto a 'secular' radio station is a good thing!!
Salt and light, people!!! Come out from under your bushels!

By  Dan, at 12:07 pm, January 20, 2006  

Great debate:) Very interesting

By  Anita, at 12:12 pm, January 20, 2006  

I am not getting upset/excited about it Dan. I just thought it was interesting and thought I would raise it as a question because it was an unanswered question in my mind.

I would define ZM as representing Mainstream and Parachute as representing Christian Mainstream. Do the two have a relationship? Should they? Should Christian listen to mainstream radio stations? Should we advertise our events on them? If we are not prepared to listen then should we give them our advertising dollars? Should we advertise on them when they in general represent ideas and play music that is offensive to us?

All very interesting questions that as Christains we have to answer as we try to be salt and light:)

By  Anita, at 12:20 pm, January 20, 2006  

Jono- no he didn't. That is why I did to try develop the convo a bit more by adding in the definitions for everyone info and to more clearly explain my thinking.

By  Anita, at 12:25 pm, January 20, 2006  

I think as far as what we should or should not listen to regarding Radio Stations. we can start by asking this question 'is the music that they're playing portraying a worldview or idea that is contary to our beliefs as a Christian?' I suggest that in regard to most radio stations if you are being honest then you would have to say yes. That the music that is on the radio is not christian. Then you need to ask another couple of questions. Does the music affect me? is it positive or negative? and also does the music affect my brother? is that positive or negative? Once you've answered those questions then you can decide whether or not you should listen to a non-christian radio station. I don't think you can make a blanket judgement.

In regards to advertising, why not! if parachute wants to advertise on secular radio then good on them. what ever gets the message to the masses.

By  Jonathan, at 1:24 pm, January 20, 2006  

Sorry Anita, I didn't mean to imply that you were getting upset.
And it is an interesting area to look at.

I would say that Christians should be out advertising their events as widely, and by as many means as is possible.
By advertising, I mean passive broadcast type advertising - radio, tv, billboards, posters, circulars, etc.
We're called to be different, holy, set apart, but we're not called to be exclusive. I guess that is a distiction that so many people since Christ have struggled to make.

As for listening to secular radio, tv, movies etc - I think we all know Phil 4:8 (whatever is true, noble, right, pure etc).

By  Dan, at 1:38 pm, January 20, 2006  

I don't think you can make a blanket judgement either Jono- you make a good point. Dan- you are right to apply that verse- it is the standard in which we should judge things to be good or bad.

I just have a issue with saying 'Do you shouldn't probably listen to them but it is ok for Christians to give them money for advertising time' Surely the what we do with our money is just as important as what we do with our ears.

I wouldn't buy products from a place or business that was obviously anti christian. In the same way should we buy a radio stations products (advertising slots) when we don't agree with why they play and say?

By  Anita, at 5:17 pm, January 20, 2006  

I'm not sure that you can compare what we do with our ears with what we do with our money.

We spend money to buy Bibles and tracts to give to sinners and non-believers. We spend money to buy food to share with sinners and non-believers.

We spend money on advertising space to reach out to sinners and non-believers.
I think buying radio time is a good thing.

By  Dan, at 8:49 pm, January 20, 2006  

As Jono asked ;-) hehe...
Yes bad music does affect me. It makes me angry and want to argue with the musicians. Or wherever is unfortunate enough to be listening with me lol.

Then again... maybe it's having to argue with mormons and christian liberals (thats this week's example at least) day after day online that I just don't have any tollerance left for music. I'm happy enough not bothering listening to it anyway :-)

I personally wouldn't want to advertise on secular stations. Because in doing so I'd be contributing to their broadcast and associating my name with it's contents. Just like I wouldn't really want to have a Bible based article written by me pasted on the front window of a sex shop. Unless it was directly refuting the shop, then it would be counter productive.

By  Anonymous, at 7:47 pm, January 21, 2006  

*whoever

By  Anonymous, at 7:47 pm, January 21, 2006  

I think that Allan is right, by advertising on ZM Parachute is associating it's self with it's contents. I don't think that the ends always justify the means.

Remember when Paul Holmes made the ill fated 'cheeky darkie' comment? The Holmes Show's major sponsor Nissan pulled it's sponsership. Why? Cause the company didn't want to associated with the drama.

I believe we are to be where the people are but I don't think comparising is the best option.

I didn't say you can compare what we do with our ears and money. I said they are just as important. Jesus had a great many things to say about wealth/money. How a Christian spends his/her money is very very important.

By  Anita, at 10:53 pm, January 22, 2006  

Sorry that should read 'but I don't think compromising is the best option'.

By  Anita, at 1:58 pm, January 23, 2006  

The thing is that only God knows the 'ends', and if just one person decides to go to Parachute having heard the advert on ZM and there receives the gospel and is saved, then that radio advertising would have been money well spent.

It's not up to the salt to determine which parts of the food it shall season but rather up to He who shakes out the salt.

By  Dan, at 2:15 pm, January 24, 2006  

You make a good point. However Parachute is mainly being promoted on Ian Stables show from 3-7pm. 5 mins after giving the promotional 'text now to win tickets' talk (with the backing music being 'Highway to Hell') he used Jesus Christ's name as a swear word. This was yesterday. God would not like that. We must be wise and discerning and motivated by the desire to honour and glorify God in all we do. We can't do what we like saying that who knows how God will use it. God is gracious to the stupid but he would rather us use our heads.

Or perhaps to match the analogy, God can make chicken pie out of chicken turd but he would much rather we gave him the chicken.

By  Anita, at 4:04 pm, January 24, 2006  

Interesting discussion, some good points made. Just checked out the ad for myself on ZMs site and noticed they didnt mention anything about it being a Christian music festival - just painted it as a picture of huge crowds under the stars with music galore. but then i guess thats the slant you'd expect a non-christian radio station to take. But yeah ive yet to full make up my mind about what i think of Parachute advertising on ZM..

By  Priscilla, at 6:24 pm, January 24, 2006  

Dan... that brings to mind romans 3:8 again.

By  Anonymous, at 9:42 pm, January 24, 2006  

I agree that we can't do what we like, saying "who knows how God will use it.".

Yet God does work all things for the good of those who love Him.

Not advertising Parachute on radio simply because the DJ is mocking the ads, and playing secular or anti-Christian music is, in my books, no reason to not advertise on that station.

Jesus preached and taught, and shared meals in the houses of sinners. He spoke against the unGodly teachers and rulers of His time, in the public forum.

Why should we withdraw to any degree, when He engaged even unto death?

By  Dan, at 8:42 am, January 27, 2006  

I just don''t think God would approve of ZM and it's music, DJ's and opinions. If God doesn't approve of it then why would He be ok with Christain's using it as a vehicle to further His Kingdom. God doesn't need to use dodgy radio station to further His kingdom.

Again, by advertising on ZM you are aligning yourself with it's content. If the DJ's suddenly starting broadcasting racial slurs then lots of business would pull their ads. Why? Because they don't want to be associated with it's content. I believe the current situation on ZM means that Christains should not be aligning themselves to it's content by advertising on. A DJ that used Jesus Christ's name as a swear word? That is offensive to us and we should be associated with it, much less help fund the show by giving it advertising dollars. Kinda reminds me of Psalm 1:1- Blessed is he who does not sit in the seat of mockers.

It really comes down to whether or not people feel that by advertising on ZM you are associating yourself to it's contents. If you don't feel that you are then there is no reason not to advertise on that station.

Preaching and sharing with non-christains is commanded and right. But in this example we are using a non-christain medium to achieve the work of Christ, a third party arrangement. I think they are two totally different situations and not comparable.

By  Anita, at 3:13 pm, January 27, 2006  

I'm sure that God didn't approve of the practices of the prostitutes and
tax collectors that His Son associated with. Nor would we think for a second that Jesus was aligning Himself with their practices because he spent time with them.

By distancing ourselves from non-Christians, we reduce the opportunities to share the love of Christ with them.
Where do you draw the line when it comes to associating with non-Christians? Should there even be a line? Why or why not?

By  Anonymous, at 10:51 pm, January 27, 2006  

Advertising on a radio station is heaps different to building a one on one relationship with someone. I am talking about being associated with ideas and concepts that are represented by a radio station and condoning them by funding the show. I am not talking about forming relationships with people. We are called to be in the world but not of it.

You should never draw a line when associating with non-christains. You should however draw one when it come to associating yourself to their beliefs.

By  Anita, at 11:59 pm, January 27, 2006  

I'm am the 'Anonymous' of the last comment, but I was writing from my mobile phone, and the browser on it wouldn't let me log in somehow.

I don't necessarily see how advertising on a particular radio station is aligning yourself with their beliefs.
Is it wrong then that Bill and Pat Subritzky advertise their meetings in the newspapers?

By  Dan, at 4:43 pm, January 28, 2006  

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